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Multiple character sets

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Fippy

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Post Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:13 pm

Re: Multiple character sets

Try as I can, I have not been able to wrap my head around a better way of doing things. With a six-box team there are 56 combinations that are single char, or all six chars. I cannot decide on a menu structure that makes sense. I could break things down by the number of characters and then have buttons corresponding to the different combos. (For 5 chars, there would be 6 buttons representing sets of chars with one of the six left out. etc etc)

For those who have done something similar, I'm curious how you organized things.

I may end up creating new button graphics rather than trying to list character names or slot numbers.

PS: On the subject of adding new button images, is there a way to do this other than editing the default image set? That sounds like it would be subject to overwrite.
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bob

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Post Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:26 pm

Re: Multiple character sets

Fippy wrote:PS: On the subject of adding new button images, is there a way to do this other than editing the default image set? That sounds like it would be subject to overwrite.
I added new Image Sets. Right click the Images (global) node, select New Image Set. Add your images to that. Although I've never had the default image set update on me before. The Image Sets are not stored in your profile, so if you want to back them up, you will need to right click on them and select Generate XML File and save it somewhere.

Fippy wrote:For those who have done something similar, I'm curious how you organized things.
This is my lotro setup (I have pictures of this one handy), which deals with ATG assignment. I started out with this completely driving ATG's, and have since added the virtualisation to it as it have become apparent that the ever increasing number of Key Maps I was creating in my setup were splitting and defining different roles within a class. I've realised that I could achieve some things purely by virtualisation rather than ATG's, but it would be over the top for some of the functions. So the ATG's are useful in some circumstances (they are also damned easy to debug).

The ATG in the top left is a button that expands (loads) the tick box menu. When it loads, the default setup has all boxes with a red cross. The button calls a top level load menu mapped key which then in turn calls a mapped key for each row which ticks the appropriate boxes in that row (or set the golden glow in the FM row).

This is what I use to allocate functions within a group:
Image

  • The Tank, DPS, Stunner, Group Heal rows set roles within the group. This also changes the virtualisation. I don't do it by class here; this calls a mapped key which calls a virtualised mapped key which is assigned per class, and it will then change the role virtualisation, so the toon effectively runs a different rotation set. There are trait sets in lotro which also change some of the skills available, and I've considered adding that setup to a sub menu here, but I very rarely change it in game. It would be beneficial in several instances though so it is definitely a possibility.
  • The Self Heal row will allow a characters rotation chain to throw in a few heals periodically. It also sets a virtualisation chain which is used to load a clickbar/videofx display on the main (I overlay the clickbars with videofx so I can see cooldowns), so it pops up some self healing skills on my healing array.
  • Digger, Chopper, Worm, are resource gathering skills in game. They just assign some groups so when I click on some other buttons (another menu with some icons I found) on the main to collect resources it will select a toon from the appropriate group, drop them out of the Follower temporarily, send them off to the selected resource and collect it. If there are multiple toons in a group, they will round robin - this be because I drop them from the resource ATG temporarily too while they are running off to collect the resource, so I don't interfere with their collecting if there are multiple resources around (sadly this doesn't update the menu tickboxes while it drops the toons out of groups because that would require timers on mapped keys, which are not allowed - this is due to how I've setup this menu, not because you couldn't get it to update the imagery if you wanted to, in fact I know how to do it here too, but I just didn't like the method).
  • Follower is pretty much the Follower ATG. I send everything through this ATG, so if I don't want a character to participate anymore, then I untick this one and they don't. I still need them in group though or the Slot-Order Targeting wont work (EQ has the /TAR command which would solve this problem). I've considered fixing this so I can reorder the group via a sub menu; basically allow me to set F1 - F6 via the menu and update the Variable Keystroke settings, but it is not often I load a 6man group and disband and reform a smaller one, although I have done it on some quests which require it. When I said everything, I meant it too. It will drop the character from the window cycle rotations too (Next Window/Prev Window) because that also uses the Follower ATG.

The FM row can be used to allocate individually by selecting the appropriate coloured icon on the row (it will move the highlight ring). This is achieved by having 4 buttons inside a larger button. The 4 little buttons are used for the location and click, and the larger button is used for the image. They are z-layered, which works because later defined buttons are put on top of previously defined buttons.
The images I used for the Fellowship manoeuvre are pretty flat, but then I can't draw for shit, and just ripped them off a website. The 4 ringed icons consist of 5 different versions, 4 of them with a different colour having the "golden glow" (my limited skilled allowed me to add this) and 1 with no glow (this would only show up at the beginning if a character was not assigned to an appropriate ATG). I could have overlaid these as Firescue17 suggested, but it seemed rather tricky to get it all to work and it would have been more work that just making the 5 images that change.

I can also hit the FM button itself and it will expand out to this:
Image
I can then click on a row in this one and it will setup all 6 members, close the sub menu and show the appropriate configuration on the individual row. Again, flat images nabbed from a website.

Each row at the main tick box level requires 14 mapped keys to make it work (the FM row requires 52). I could get this to work with less mapped keys per row, but I don't for 2 reasons.
  1. It would make it harder to initialise and "read" the starting state dynamically (i.e. which ATG each character is in) when it displays, and
  2. The menu is only available on characters that are assigned to a specific ATG -> to be fair, this is usually slot 1, but when I initially set this up I had it running on dxnothing window which was slot 8 and I wanted it portable, so it is not tied to a specific slot in any way.
The FM sub menu only requires 1 mapped key per row because it doesn't try and work out whether you have something selected, and it just calls the mapped keys for the tick box main menu to set the values.
Last edited by bob on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fippy

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Post Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:28 pm

Re: Multiple character sets

FYI for anyone else reading this, the images(global) node is part of the menu.

Thanks a lot for your post Bob, I'm going to study it for a bit now.

Edit: One thing I notice is that all of these menus assume six active slots. That is part of the problem I'm trying to work around (in EQ). If I decide to only use 3 slots, I need to assign variable keys based on what order they are invited into the group. Assuming I always invite in slot order (not a difficult thing to do) I may only have slots 3,4,6 logged in. Gonna think on this a bit more...

Edit 2: I'm not really launching a six-box group every time. Sometimes I just use 'launch slot' to launch a couple. Like tonight, I only needed a druid and a mage to farm some tradeskill items. Since they removed the AFK kick timer I suppose I could just launch the entire team and leave several of the AFK. That seems a waste, and my gut tells me it might be possible to do better than that. Being able to add custom images may be enough to make it reasonable. I just need 56 buttons organized into submenus and I should be able to assign the correct variable keystrokes.
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bob

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Post Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: Multiple character sets

For what you want, vs what I wanted, this setup is different, but it was more about showing possibilities.

For the main important piece of dropping characters in and out, I am using the Follower ATG, and row in my menu.
The setup is dynamic enough that it will allow me to take a subset of characters and play only them. Of course I need to have the full group defined in game though so I still need to log them all in and form up in the group (I know you don't want this, read on). This is where a small amount of virtualisation around your targeting/assist setup using the EQ /TAR charname and /ASS charname slash commands would solve this.

My interpretation of Firescue17's setup (I could get this wrong, I don't think I've seen his actual config, just bits), each character had their own assigned Key Map for any character specific settings. Two of the mapped keys in these were Assist Me and Target Me. These in turn had the /TAR CHARNAME /ASS CHARNAME slash commands in them.
Now, the character that actually owned the Key Map (i.e. their name was on it), never ran those mapped keys, but instead every other character did. Every other character was also assigned every character specific Key Map, but they don't implement the virtualisation chain to use them, so it was never a problem having them assigned.
When you activated a specific character, then this ran a top level mapped key which changed the virtualisation chain for the Assist Me and Target Me mapped keys (these had a virtualisation chain for this purpose) to tell all the characters that when the Assist Me/Target Me was called then it should run the one in the character specific key map of the active character (he had some other funky stuff too with Group1 and Group2, but lets ignore that for now). Through this method, then the other characters all got the correct names for who was the current active slot, and it meant he could do away with the F1-F6 setup.

How does that fit in with what you want? Well in that setup, the Assist/Target functions are dynamic, and do not rely on any specific group order (yay!). If you drop a character from group and bring another one in, then no problemo, provided ISBoxer knows that character has changed. If you had a matrix so you could set that character in a specific slot, and run the virtualisation settings for that character so ISBoxer knew that a specific character was in a specific slot, then it would work fine (this would mean setting up the virtualisation via mapped keys rather than by the tabs in ISBoxer).
My simple setup of this would require a row for every character, so you would end up with a 6x6 grid (for selection). Then just use the tick boxes to select which character is in which slot. If you only had 3 characters active, you would only tick the three relevant boxes. The 6x6 grid would still display, but you don't have to tick everything. The basic assumption though is that you would have a six man group.
If you have potentially more than 6 characters for this group (i.e. multiple characters on the account and you want to swap them in), then you will need to add more rows (you could basically have one 6 man character set and then control who was in it and what position via a menu, but it might get rather large if you had 10 chars per account :) ).

You could use some different visual setups to chose characters too, like a single row with drop down sub menus (which could display every character you have - remember this drop down could be a grid display too), and these could update the top level and display the character name. It all depends on how funky you want to get. It also depends on what you are trying to set, whether just a specific role, or something character specific. You could end up with a layered image as Firescue17 said. It could select a specific character, and then display a layer with the class and role, and any other thing you wanted, and this could be driven through various menus and sub menus. Don't let my rubbish imagery put you off or dictate the UI.

You could end up with generic character sets that are: 2man, 3man, 4man, 5man, 6man. You have these specifically because of the WIndow Layouts. You load one. You then choose from the menu who was in which slot (you could have menus that correspond to the character set size too so you only got a 2 slot menu for the 2man group - they would still do all the same stuff though so setting them up would be pretty simple {in comparison to some of the rest of it anyway}). This then runs the appropriate config for that character. You then load any final config such as loading relevant menus/clickbars/videofx that are set based on whatever factors are relevant, some of which may be defined by the characters you have chosen and/or the slots they are in, but are all set correctly because it is virtualised.

The only downside to a lot of this, is that you need to be very careful in your config to avoid setting Targets by slot (although sometimes this is difficult to avoid completely and you will need to virtualise these at the correct level). As much as possible needs to be either by ATG or via some virtualisation chain. If you only want a single character then you can get then from an ATG by using the advanced targets http://isboxer.com/wiki/Target


p.s. You can also get to the Images (global) node by selecting a clickbar.
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Fippy

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Post Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:12 am

Re: Multiple character sets

Thanks for your help Bob, I really appreciate it.

I have a prototype of the UI setup, and I think it will work. I created a bunch of buttons in PAINT.NET which had 6 boxes, and different combinations of these filled in. These corresponded to all 57 non-solo combinations. I upped this from 56 because I decided to include the case where all 6 chars are in. This is the default when loading the char set, but I figured I might want to switch to a full 6 box crew in-mid session.

I initially built a menu, but decided to use a click-bar instead. The only wierdness is that I need to right-click each button. The character set uses Mouse1 for Video FX Focus, so that is right out. I suppose it might be nice if a clickbar superseded the focus change, but it isn't too much to right-click instead of left clicking. This isn't something that is going to be done in the heat of battle.

Image

I may find this is too cumbersome and switch to something else, but I'd like to give it a shot and see if it makes it easier to switch team composition.

I'll probably need to handle multiple characters on the same account somehow. I think this would be easier in InnerSpace :)

PS: I seem to have the wrong button image for one of the second row buttons. Will get to that later.

PPS: I seem to have gotten the idea that characters in a character set are bound to a slot no matter which characters are loaded. If I manually load two different slots, my mapped keys seem to need to use the real slot numbers. It is late and I may be confusing myself.
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firescue17

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Post Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:06 am

Re: Multiple character sets

bob wrote:My interpretation of Firescue17's setup (I could get this wrong, I don't think I've seen his actual config, just bits), each character had their own assigned Key Map for any character specific settings. Two of the mapped keys in these were Assist Me and Target Me. These in turn had the /TAR CHARNAME /ASS CHARNAME slash commands in them.
Now, the character that actually owned the Key Map (i.e. their name was on it), never ran those mapped keys, but instead every other character did. Every other character was also assigned every character specific Key Map, but they don't implement the virtualisation chain to use them, so it was never a problem having them assigned.
When you activated a specific character, then this ran a top level mapped key which changed the virtualisation chain for the Assist Me and Target Me mapped keys (these had a virtualisation chain for this purpose) to tell all the characters that when the Assist Me/Target Me was called then it should run the one in the character specific key map of the active character (he had some other funky stuff too with Group1 and Group2, but lets ignore that for now). Through this method, then the other characters all got the correct names for who was the current active slot, and it meant he could do away with the F1-F6 setup.

This is exactly it! Better than I've explained myself.

Fippy wrote:Try as I can, I have not been able to wrap my head around a better way of doing things. With a six-box team there are 56 combinations that are single char, or all six chars. I cannot decide on a menu structure that makes sense. I could break things down by the number of characters and then have buttons corresponding to the different combos. (For 5 chars, there would be 6 buttons representing sets of chars with one of the six left out. etc etc)

For those who have done something similar, I'm curious how you organized things.

You don't need Character Sets for all 56 iterations of Characters. You only 6 for the number of game windows to be launched:
  • 01 Box
  • 02 Box
  • 03 Box
  • 04 Box
  • 05 Box
  • 06 Box

That is all (for discussion purposes). I drag any Character, into any Slot, in any Character Set, export and launch. If I want new Characters, I drag them around and re-export. Because of the generic virtualization and lack of slot specific targeting, it works all the time. On launch or re-launch, "Load Me" in "SLOT TEMPLATE" executes and initializes all the Virtualization. The End. All done.
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Fippy

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Post Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:43 pm

Re: Multiple character sets

Thanks guys, that is a big help. I gather that the 'Variable Keys' are therefore not used. I was stuck trying to get those setup, but the direct approach sounds better.

I still use 'assist me' and 'follow me' (and their cousins 'mez my target, nuke my target'). I have had occasional problems with the non-variable things not working, especially when I had longer character names. I will experiment with that again though, perhaps I've learned enough that I can address whatever issues I ran into earlier.

It was kind of fun putting together that click-bar though /shrug
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Fippy

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Post Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:18 pm

Re: Multiple character sets

I've ran into a bit of a snag, and I think I see what went wrong the last time I went down this path.

I have multiple characters on each account, and sometimes I like to swap these characters while I'm playing. In game I would camp to character select and then load the next character in.

ISBoxer has no idea that I'm doing any of this :cry: If I try to launch the new character without taking the client all the way down, then ISBoxer will launch a new client. It should know that a client for Slot 1 is already active, but it loads a second. This won't do.

The character-level virtualization will indeed do what I need, but ISBoxer is not character-centered as much as slot-centered. The character-template is assigned when the slot loads, and remains until the client is brought down. I could redo this via actions, but it brings up the UI issues I've been running into. As Bob mentioned earlier I may need a matrix to perform the assignment. Or I could have an "ACCOUNT TEMPLATE" which has a virtualized "reload" button that brings up a list of characters on that account.

By the way, how does one do drop-down submenus? I could have one popup menu launch another, but the dropdown would look nicer. I could see having a list of characters on the account (this would be easy enough to update) which would appear when I hit a "reload" button or what have you. Pick the correct one, and the virtualizations update.
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bob

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Post Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:07 am

Re: Multiple character sets

Fippy wrote:ISBoxer has no idea that I'm doing any of this :cry: If I try to launch the new character without taking the client all the way down, then ISBoxer will launch a new client. It should know that a client for Slot 1 is already active, but it loads a second. This won't do.
This is true, and this is why Firescue17 says he goes back to ISBoxer, drags the characters to the slots, exports and away you go. You can do this on the fly and export and it will all work. What I was suggesting with the menu driven approach is that you wouldn't need to go back to ISBoxer to change characters. You select the new character, open the character set menu, select them, close the menu, viola, all done. A load more config up front, but it would be awesome.

Fippy wrote:By the way, how does one do drop-down submenus? I could have one popup menu launch another, but the dropdown would look nicer.
Exactly. One menu loads another, although I don't use popups, just normal menus (actually I use a custom menu, and you can't do popups with the custom menus). I have 3 menus, all carefully positioned so they fit together (unfortunately you can't make their positioning relative to another menu so moving the location of the menus is manual).
The ATG button in my example is one menu, then I have the tick box grid that it expands to which is another menu, and then the FM sub menu when I hit the FM button (which is part of the tick box grid). If I click the ATG button it loads or unloads the tickbox grid. On an unload, if the FM submenu if it is visible that gets closed too.
The only issue is when you click on a button in a "submenu"; if you have that button close the menu it belongs to, it has a timing issue. I got around this by putting a timer on the unload menu action for 0.1 sec. The delay is imperceptible when using it, and it prevents the crash.

Fippy wrote: I could see having a list of characters on the account (this would be easy enough to update) which would appear when I hit a "reload" button or what have you. Pick the correct one, and the virtualizations update.
I'd just do that as part of the button. You select the character, it reloads the character virtualisations. When you close the character select menu (Reload)then it runs the character set activate/reload.


Now that I've kept writing about how it could be done, I've been considering actually setting this up to see it in action because it sounds cool :ugeek:
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Fippy

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Post Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:34 pm

Re: Multiple character sets

bob wrote:
This is true, and this is why Firescue17 says he goes back to ISBoxer, drags the characters to the slots, exports and away you go. You can do this on the fly and export and it will all work. What I was suggesting with the menu driven approach is that you wouldn't need to go back to ISBoxer to change characters. You select the new character, open the character set menu, select them, close the menu, viola, all done. A load more config up front, but it would be awesome.

Let me get this straight: Firescue launches a character set, then while the game is playing he replaces characters in the character set (in isboxer) and exports without relaunching?

If so, that would be fine. I'm going to try that just to see what happens. But the more I think of it I see that is must work. There would be no difference than me editing an existing character and exporting. This is just a pretty extreme edit.

One problem I foresee is ATG membership. Actions seem to be ultimately directed to slots, not characters. Maybe I've got this part wrong and just need to work at it (I have had issues in this dept). If this is true, then directing an action to Fred will
cause the action to be performed by whoever is in Fred's slot. And if this is the case, then think there will be problems when we can't remove characters from ATGs.

Example: Fred is in two ATGs: Flintstones and Shadowknights. I make a bunch of actions that I direct to all Flintstones or all Shadowknights. I then unload Fred and replace him with Barney. Would Barney not receive Shadowknight actions too, since he is in the same slot that Fred was?

Maybe some more experimenting is in order.

bob wrote:(actually I use a custom menu, and you can't do popups with the custom menus). I have 3 menus, all carefully positioned so they fit together (unfortunately you can't make their positioning relative to another menu so moving the location of the menus is manual).

Custom as in custom XML? How is this menu different? I'm not sure why I need custom menus, but I'm pretty sure that I need them :D

Edit: I just watched MiRai's video where he discussed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AmjRFj ... e=youtu.be
Excellent stuff.

bob wrote:I'd just do that as part of the button. You select the character, it reloads the character virtualisations. When you close the character select menu (Reload)then it runs the character set activate/reload.


I tried this, as mentioned in a post under "Key Maps", and the change in virtualization did not work. I probably misunderstood something about how virtualization works. When a character loads, "Virtual Mapped Keys" are assigned. So I replace "CHARACTER TEMPLATE" with one particular character. Later on I try to replace "CHARACTER TEMPLATE" with another character, and nada. Now it may be the case that once I replace "CHARACTER TEMPLATE" then it is gone, and I have to replace the previous value. This would be awkward without variables. Getting past this will be a major step forward in this project.
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