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Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Moderator: MiRai

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Kamikaze

Posts: 25

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:42 am

Post Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:15 am

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

barrenearth wrote:
They were very careful to be explicit about what is banned because they do not want to lose the subscriptions/plex purchases that isboxers make.


This is clearly not the case. They specifically left out names of any programs on purpose and according to their dev team did so in order to leave their options open in the future to ban users of software as they see fit. They couldn't care less about anyone using isboxer or any other program, they care about the current mob mentality that is anti-all things candy giving.


I disagree and feel they were very specific. They listed specific ways in which you are not allowed to manipulate gameplay. There are many hardware and software options and if they name them and a new one comes out it opens the door for issues policing the policy. Banning the specific type of input is as clear cut as you can get. According to the new rules about broadcasting and multiplexing this is banned as well. Sure they left their options open should the workarounds we decide to employ prove to be too effective. I'm ok with game balance. I feel there should be degrees of difficulty to managing more clients and the difficulty should scale.

I don't think this kills bomber fleets that are actually using bombs but torp fleets yeah not being able to broadcast targeting for 20 accounts pretty much wrecks it but lets face it isboxer bomber fleets were ridiculously overpowered anyway. Everything in this game has it's day then ccp comes in with the nerf bat and some other method of gameplay is crowned champion. Adapting to change is part of eve. I'm not thrilled with the changes but even before I used isboxer i could run cap escalated c5 sites with 6 characters and make 6b isk in about 2 hours. I'm not even gonna pretend I know how much incursions will net you but I don't even get into a pve ship for less than 1b per hour and that's working under ccps new rules...point being there are more than a few ways to get rich in this game leveraging your isboxer fleet.
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barrenearth

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:30 pm

Post Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:13 am

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

@Kamikaze:

They have a EULA that is so vague and so convoluted to include everything from a paper weight on the F1 key for MWD in autopilot to the most sophisticated macro programs. They purposefully have left things answered only in forum posts and not in detailed policy so they can fit their EULA to the situation as they see fit. They have not named ISBoxer, or its specific implementation. Technically they have left out G15 Logitech macro keys, but I am sure if you have 20 accounts active and you get petitioned they will use the G15 M key signatures to ban you.

They are on a desperate witch hunt to get anything and everything that will make the masses happy. At this point I would be very afraid at the lengths they go, and be even more afraid at the generalization they have made about broadcasting activities as a whole.
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Kamikaze

Posts: 25

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:42 am

Post Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:19 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

I don't feel this is a witch hunt at all. There are a handful of people (replicator) who are so good at pvp isboxing that they finally stepped in and nerfed it. I don't think they really care what you do in pve content aside from making sure you are at the keyboard if buttons are being pressed, but just like wow or any other mmo you have to balance the game based on what the top 5% are capable of doing within the game. They are feeding the forum trolls who hate isboxer but I don't think that means they are on their side.

I guess time will tell us who is right.
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IronSatan

Posts: 9

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:04 am

Post Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:00 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Well get your IS boxing accounts to all vote for me. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=390424&find=unread

Personally I do not feel this is a witch hunt but has the potential to turn into one. Which is one of the main questions I want answered. I hope to be better PR for the multiboxing eve community and to show CCP that they need to communicate with us a lot more.

Both sides should be able to agree this was out of the blue and that there is little to no communication from CCP regarding their reasons. They need to man up and explain it, even if they don't change their standpoint.
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bugme143

User avatar

Posts: 47

Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:31 am

Post Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:10 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

IronSatan wrote:Well get your IS boxing accounts to all vote for me. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=390424&find=unread

Personally I do not feel this is a witch hunt but has the potential to turn into one. Which is one of the main questions I want answered. I hope to be better PR for the multiboxing eve community and to show CCP that they need to communicate with us a lot more.

Both sides should be able to agree this was out of the blue and that there is little to no communication from CCP regarding their reasons. They need to man up and explain it, even if they don't change their standpoint.


Sorry, I cannot in good conscience vote for a multiboxer / ISBoxer who wants CCP to ban broadcasting given the countless number of changes that were proposed in F&I to stop the proliferation of ISBoxers or to nerf their supposed superiority.
I'm an EVE bro with extended knowledge of incursions. Feel free to contact me here.
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Jeran

Posts: 59

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:57 am

Post Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Y'all are (mostly) crazy, this is a great change! It is perfectly reasonable and still lets you have a small number of accounts and do cool things, and it nerfs the heck out of the huge setups that were (almost) all undoubtedly bad for the game.
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bugme143

User avatar

Posts: 47

Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:31 am

Post Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:58 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Jeran wrote:Y'all are (mostly) crazy, this is a great change! It is perfectly reasonable and still lets you have a small number of accounts and do cool things, and it nerfs the heck out of the huge setups that were (almost) all undoubtedly bad for the game.


1) [Citation needed]
2) Define "small"
3) There were millions of other tweaks they could've done to fix the major "concerns" (if you can call the whinings of people who always want to win or cry when someone has a bigger toy than them "concerns") brought up by people. They chose to amputate the patient's leg instead of suturing the severed artery.
3) [Citation needed]
I'm an EVE bro with extended knowledge of incursions. Feel free to contact me here.
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Jeran

Posts: 59

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:57 am

Post Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:04 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

bugme143 wrote:
Jeran wrote:Y'all are (mostly) crazy, this is a great change! It is perfectly reasonable and still lets you have a small number of accounts and do cool things, and it nerfs the heck out of the huge setups that were (almost) all undoubtedly bad for the game.


1) :getout:
2) Define "small"
3) :getout:
3) :getout:


So in response to your reasonable point - that would be number 2 - I'd put it at 3-5 accounts if you want to stay mostly sane, and 5-10 if you're willing to lose some efficiency.

EVE does suffer from game design that promotes multiboxing, and some of that isn't easy to fix. Mining, incursions, afk ratting, full bomber wings, capital ships, and so on all have inherent mechanics that make it really easy to use a ton of them at once (or as many as you need; 10 or 20 or 40 or whatever in the case of incursions). Unfortunately, they also all kinda break the game in various ways when played like that. Multiboxed bombers and capital ships are an example for PvP, since the former becomes both a requirement and also a harshly limiting factor in doctrine design, and the latter leads to unbreakable rr blobs and tanking til downtime; Incursions and mining are the obvious pve examples, with the former being a straight up stupid isk faucet and also competing with actual group content, and the latter causing issues with single account miners (which, as terrible as mining is, should be a more profitable option for new players).

I'm sure you have just as many reasons against this, but I think mine are the right ones =)
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bugme143

User avatar

Posts: 47

Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:31 am

Post Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:24 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Jeran wrote:
bugme143 wrote:
Jeran wrote:Y'all are (mostly) crazy, this is a great change! It is perfectly reasonable and still lets you have a small number of accounts and do cool things, and it nerfs the heck out of the huge setups that were (almost) all undoubtedly bad for the game.


1) :getout:
2) Define "small"
3) :getout:
3) :getout:


So in response to your reasonable point - that would be number 2 - I'd put it at 3-5 accounts if you want to stay mostly sane, and 5-10 if you're willing to lose some efficiency.

EVE does suffer from game design that promotes multiboxing, and some of that isn't easy to fix. Mining, incursions, afk ratting, full bomber wings, capital ships, and so on all have inherent mechanics that make it really easy to use a ton of them at once (or as many as you need; 10 or 20 or 40 or whatever in the case of incursions). Unfortunately, they also all kinda break the game in various ways when played like that. Multiboxed bombers and capital ships are an example for PvP, since the former becomes both a requirement and also a harshly limiting factor in doctrine design, and the latter leads to unbreakable rr blobs and tanking til downtime; Incursions and mining are the obvious pve examples, with the former being a straight up stupid isk faucet and also competing with actual group content, and the latter causing issues with single account miners (which, as terrible as mining is, should be a more profitable option for new players).

I'm sure you have just as many reasons against this, but I think mine are the right ones =)


Jeran has leveled up!
Jeran has learned Dodge!
Jeran must delete a move in order to learn Dodge! What move shall that be?
>Delete "Craft careful arguments with supporting evidence and reasoning"
Congratulations!

You made the claim that this was a great change. I asked for your reasonings and your evidence. You dodged.
I asked for you to define small, which you did answer. You also pointed out that the game design itself was broken, but failed to process it in your mind it seems. You want to limit everyone to a certain number of accounts, and that makes you no better than those who whine "He has more/can control more accounts than me, ban him". There is nothing a multibox fleet can do that a trained fleet of single boxers can do just as well if not better. Attempting to argue "bu-bu-but he makes more isk / all his responses are in a single tick" is stupid because you're trying to compare BRAVE to PL, or a kitchen-sink fleet to ISN Primary line members. ISN is known (in the incursion world) for flying to the extreme limits of tank and DPS, which is what most ISBoxers do.
You claim it was "reasonable", when everyone has a different definition of "reasonable". CCP had a wide array of options to choose from, and they chose the least "reasonable" in terms of actually thinking about a problem and attempting to cure the disease, not simply treat the symptoms.
You claimed that ISBoxing large numbers was "undoubtedly bad". I asked for your reasonings and your evidence. You dodged.

So far, you've dodged most if not all of my critique of your one-line trollbait. I look forward to reading your next post of dodges.
I'm an EVE bro with extended knowledge of incursions. Feel free to contact me here.
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Kamikaze

Posts: 25

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:42 am

Post Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:59 am

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

You have a good point Jeran.

Regardless of the tools an expert isboxer will never be as efficient as an expert fleet so why the nerf? It's a pretty logical question I suppose. ISBoxing being bad for the game is the same as saying a player fleet is bad for the game. If there is no player fleet there is no content. At least an isboxer fleet can create a level of content for themselves and those around them. Early last month we wrecked an isboxer fleet of like 9 proteus and a domi. Content created by an isboxer and there was no one in our pvp roam isboxing.

The broadcasting change has little effect on my game mechanics for sites and pvp though travel takes a good 15% longer and considerably more if i misclick so I'm not that hung up on it but I do think Jeran is right. You've changed my stance on the issue. :mrgreen:
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