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Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Moderator: MiRai

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LordsServant

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 12:24 pm

Post Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

bugme143 wrote:
Hafwolf wrote:I am not talking about the trolls on the forums. I am actually talking about what is important to ccp "new players". My think is maybe take some time every now and then and help rookies get them going on the right road. Eve is harsh to new players and old players are not really new player friendly. With multiple account it would be fairly easy to Help give advice maybe command some mining fleets or help with missions in rookie space in which help them get what they need. Also the code is another problem take advantage of rookie players if rookies had and experienced miner help with tanking there ships it might reduce the code's impact. I look at it this way. Probably helping people in eve with my multiple characters might actually help me in the long run with CCP if they see a positive from the multiboxing community.


I'm "attached" to a community and we regularly help new players, including ISK donations. I also help players in other chats with missions and fitting advice. I don't know what CCP realistically expects us to do that most of us aren't doing already.


It's not so much helping new players or w/e, but increasing positive visibility over negative visibility.

At present, when someone says "isboxer" the majority of your average eve players think one of 3 things:

1. Fucking isboxers stealin mah incursions. Grrrr.
2. Fucking isboxers gankin mah freighters. Grrrr.
3. Fucking isboxers bombing mah fleet. Grrrr.

All of those are, unfortunately, examples of multiboxers playing eve solo, and even worse, adversely impacting groups of players with said "solo" isboxing of group content.

From mine and Lax's perspective, the latest isboxer changes are not meant to remove isboxer from the game, nor are they intended to stop all multiboxing activities.

They are intended to reduce the number of accounts multiboxers can effectively use, and thus strongly discourage multiboxers from playing eve solo.

This quote is the most important for me:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2n ... rs/cmcsthm

CCP Falcon wrote:My personal opinion on this question is that I value the integrity of the game, and its overall health more than I value the numbers.
I'd rather see 1 person playing with 19 of his friends, than 1 person using software or hardware to play solo while input broadcasting to 20 accounts.
EVE is a game based around interaction with others, and the action and reaction that comes from it.
Well, that's my personal take on it, at least.


At present, this seems to be CCP's view as well.

A few of the more ragey multiboxers have been quick to criticize me for coming out in FAVOUR of the changes.

The above quote sums up my feelings on isboxer as well. Eve is an MMO, and is meant to be played socially. Unlike other contemporary MMOs, Eve's content and pr is almost ENTIRELY player driven.

In WoW, it's quite the opposite. While it's still an MMO, the social aspect and player vs player content is quite a bit less - the focus is more on the PVE.

People care about "that group that was the first to clear big_baddy_pve_raid_39635218754."

In eve, noone gives two shits about the first people to run a mothership incursion site. What makes the news instead? Oh, group A (TVP) is all upset at group B(ISN) and they're intentionally popping incursions all over in conflict.

This would be a lot more boring if it was simply 1 multiboxer vs another. The very basis of eve are the players themselves, and groups of people are a lot more interesting than one guy doing stuff.

The biggest change I think that we need to do is to actually play with a group more often, rather than a bunch of individually disparate entities.

I know there are several people out there who do so, but almost noone thinks of isboxers as people engaging in group play with others - the perception is a bunch of loners playing eve as a solo game with the aide of isboxer and lots of accounts.

This post may make little or no sense, considering it was written on and off across two classes with multiple breaks/interruptions in between.
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Shadowandlight

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:40 am

Post Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:54 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

The problem is we don't know really what CCP is trying to accomplish.

We all know the capabilities of Isboxer, so assuming CCP is trying to curtail solo bombers, incursion running or ganking and post January 1st none of these things are stopped or even slowed down they might go a step further.

Will you be so understanding and supportive when they start banning the use of video fx or keymaps / round-robin?

There is an aire of appeasement that you seem to be advocating... "it's ok guys it's not that bad, don't get upset we can still do x, y or z".

I think your at best being naive. If they don't get their intended result, and I don't believe they will, with this new policy they will either reverse course or double down.

We fight back with logical arguments and shooting down the forum trolls or we suffer what future brings.

To borrow from Martian Niemöller (or granted a much more serious issue)

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
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barrenearth

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:30 pm

Post Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:03 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

I agree with Shadow.

It seems too much like we are all just giving in. I don't advocate dissent in any way here, but the payment model ISBoxer is based on lends itself to a little more proactive approach here, less we should all expect refunds for the remaining subscription time.

Also, a little communication between the developers here and the powers that be at CCP would be a minimum expected. What are they trying to accomplish and what are some things that can make this a viable program for the future. Because as I see it, when we all figure out ways to make ISBoxer work pretty much the same way as before and CCP gets more QQ from the community, they will be forced to ban ISBoxer and take steps like they have with other illlegal programs (scanning your computer for active processes).
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LordsServant

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 12:24 pm

Post Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:05 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Shadowandlight wrote:The problem is we don't know really what CCP is trying to accomplish.


Stop right there.

We will know EXACTLY what CCP is trying to accomplish shortly - directly from CCP themselves.

You raging at your own little perception of their actions would be just as foolish as me assuming that they won't be nerfing isboxer anymore if we leave it alone.

Fortunately, I have been able to rely on my friends to get in touch with the only people that matter, and we will know exactly their intentions and will be able to sit down and discuss how we can BOTH come to an understanding about isboxers and our place in their vision of eve.

Don't strawman my argument, and don't get in my way while I work to (in the words of others) "rehabilitate our reputation".
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LordsServant

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 12:24 pm

Post Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:06 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

barrenearth wrote:Also, a little communication between the developers here and the powers that be at CCP would be a minimum expected. What are they trying to accomplish and what are some things that can make this a viable program for the future.


I have already arranged this. Standby for me announcing a day and time for when the meeting will be taking place.

I will be announcing comms at that time as well.
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MiRai

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Vibrant Videographer

Posts: 2939

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:30 pm

Post Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:48 am

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

LordsServant wrote:From mine and Lax's perspective, the latest isboxer changes are not meant to remove isboxer from the game, nor are they intended to stop all multiboxing activities.

And my perspective... and numerous others who are up to date with these new changes. Don't try to keep all the credit for yourself now.

LordsServant wrote:
Shadowandlight wrote:The problem is we don't know really what CCP is trying to accomplish.

Stop right there.

We will know EXACTLY what CCP is trying to accomplish shortly - directly from CCP themselves.

So, we have a quote directly from CCP stating exactly why they've decided to disallow repeating/broadcasting/multiplexing from the game? What you quoted from reddit does not explain why they did it and what they're attempting to accomplish, nor does their recent announcement on their forum.

A direct quote would look something like this:
"We've decided to make these changes because <list of reasons>."

If do not have a similar quote, then I agree with Shadow and we still don't actually know why they're making the change outside of (mildly educated and hopeful) speculation.
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LordsServant

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 12:24 pm

Post Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

MiRai wrote:
LordsServant wrote:From mine and Lax's perspective, the latest isboxer changes are not meant to remove isboxer from the game, nor are they intended to stop all multiboxing activities.

And my perspective... and numerous others who are up to date with these new changes. Don't try to keep all the credit for yourself now.


Lovely, I wasn't trying to insinuate that these are my opinions only. Can we stop arguing semantics?

MiRai wrote:
LordsServant wrote:
Shadowandlight wrote:The problem is we don't know really what CCP is trying to accomplish.

Stop right there.

We will know EXACTLY what CCP is trying to accomplish shortly - directly from CCP themselves.

So, we have a quote directly from CCP stating exactly why they've decided to disallow repeating/broadcasting/multiplexing from the game? What you quoted from reddit does not explain why they did it and what they're attempting to accomplish, nor does their recent announcement on their forum.

A direct quote would look something like this:
"We've decided to make these changes because <list of reasons>."

If do not have a similar quote, then I agree with Shadow and we still don't actually know why they're making the change outside of (mildly educated and hopeful) speculation.


I'm assuming you misunderstood entirely what I wrote there.

The quote I linked has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted from me. Quotes are entirely unrelated to that.

What I was referring to when I said "We will know EXACTLY what CCP is trying to accomplish shortly - directly from CCP themselves," I meant that exactly.

I've been playing eve for quite a long time, and luckily have quite a lot of friends in quite a lot of places in Eve. I have talked to the appropriate people and have arranged a meeting directly with CCP directly (on voice comms, not person to person before people start their silly semantics arguing).

We do not have an exact date yet, but I know the timeline I was given when I first had the discussion.

The only thing required of you and the rest of the multiboxing community between now and the meeting is to not fuck things up.

This means no raging on forums, no petulant whining about the changes (which we know nothing about as I've stated multiple times), and more importantly - no raging or demands at CCP.

We will be sitting down to discuss things like civilized people, and everyone is encouraged to contribute questions/talking points they would like covered in this thread:

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/5177 ... 2015-rules

When I get a firm date, and we get closer to that I will be posting comms info and time on both these forums and dual-boxing. If anyone has anywhere else they'd like me to post, please let me know. I would like to get as much of the multiboxing community together for this as possible - part of me making the point that MOST multiboxers are NOT the antisocial neckbeards playing eve solo with no interaction that most people think of when they hear multiboxer. :)

As a side note, it might be worth moving or duplicating that thread to these forums as, no offense to certain parties, dual-boxing seems a bit more Wow cultured - at least in allowing Wow mods to moderate the eve areas (WoW playing mod got offended by profanity and tempbanned me over there for a bit without any research or warnings done, just my luck said mod also is largely absentee and wasn't around to discuss her mistake, go figure). :shrug: WoW culture is more kid-friendly than Eve's is.
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barrenearth

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:30 pm

Post Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:27 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

I dont understand the anger towards me in your post. I am simply asking for the very thing you are claiming to be working towards accomplishing, communication.

Since you are doing that I applaud you. But like the post above said, don't pretend for one second that ANYONE knows CCP's intentions because at this point the powers that be at CCP might not even know their long term plans yet.

I am not raging at anyone or anything, I am simply saying the white flag approach and the total denial approaches are not the right ones here. Somewhere in the middle would probably be best. But again, we paid for a service, do not forget that.
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bob

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League of Extraordinary Multiboxers

Posts: 3827

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:14 am

Location: In the dining room, with the lead pipe.

Post Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:43 pm

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

Do you really need to know the end game of this new rule change in order to determine if you want to continue to play, and change your play style to accommodate it?

barrenearth wrote:we paid for a service, do not forget that.

You pay/paid for a service where CCP reserve the right to kick you out at their whim, no refunds, no questions answered. There are so many EULA/TOS conditions that basically say FU to the subscribers, we do what we want. This is no different to most MMO's out there.
CCP Falcon's official post is just exercising one of their "rights". We are changing the rules, this is them, lump it or get outta here. His "personal opinion" as posted on reddit was even less encouraging toward multiboxers.

The only concession you have is that if there is a change in subscription fees, or a formal update to the EULA/TOS (rather than by forum post), and then by following their proscribed process, you can potentially get a pro-rata refund.

If there was some calm and considered discussion, a bit of unity, and you could actually find out how many accounts are paid for by multiboxers whom are affected by this change, then there would at least be something concrete to throw at them. Maybe CCP already have an estimate of this and don't care?

The aim should be to determine how not to get banned when playing by the rules (both the EULA/TOS and the informal rules posted by CCP staff). Whether you are reported by some other player, and/or mistakenly identified as a botter/broadcaster/multiplexor via some other method, that the processes and adjudication on CCP's end will be fair and handled by an informed person. It would help if CCP would provide detail of the type of evidence they will be using, and if they could clarify what evidence a maligned multiboxer can provide back the other way to get their case heard. This upcoming discussion would be a good time to try and find out. * I see that LordsServant has referred back to Lax's post on dual-boxing which says all this anyway. ref: http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/5177 ... 2015-rules

IMO in order to determine with botting/broadcasting/multiplexing with a high level of accuracy (lets say 99%) requires something on the client end as well as some server analysis. If I was designing something to do this, I would require client specific details like hittest locations, tickcounts, machine name/UID, active window process, loaded dlls, running processes, none of which are likely to be currently captured as they would not normally be needed in MMO design for client server communication. So unless CPP are adding the ability to analyse such information then there will probably be false detections. Mind you, even if they did, someone could potentially create something to work around it, and that is a cat and mouse game that CCP have said in their EULA/TOS that they are unwilling to play and so the ban hammer comes out.


edit:*
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IronSatan

Posts: 9

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:04 am

Post Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:37 am

Re: Important update to EVE Online rules coming January 2015

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