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Cut/Paste from EVE forums

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bugme143

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Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:31 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:06 am

Cut/Paste from EVE forums

Dear CCP,

When you published the new "regulation" regarding ISBoxer clarifying an old rule, we all were happy:

Finally, a word from CCP what is banable and what no. The ISBoxer community honored the new rules, and we looked into our hard- and software to change our ways of playing the game to be EULA-conforming if it wasn't already. We looked for ways how we can play with ISBoxer without broadcasting and without violating the EULA.

To achieve this we tried to get answers via petitions if our new setups are okay with the EULA or not. But the answers we received were only:

- Pre-made text blocks, which were not even related to our questions at all! Did the person answering the ticket really read it? Obviously not.

- EULA quotes - which are useless if there were issues interpreting the EULA and if the ticket is asking whether a certain setup would conform to the EULA by CCP. This is a huge issue, as we have designed setups to play without broadcasting, but some people got banned even if they were not broadcasting at all. Some even did not have ISBoxer installed, and were banned.

- The majority of tickets were either closed or did not receive any answer (apart from your message closing the ticket because it was inactive for a while)

In your dev thread on the forums regarding the ISboxer rule changes and broadcasting bans, you mentioned that you want us to get in contact with you if there are problems.

Yes, there are problems. For two month we are trying to get in contact with you and get a clear answer if our new methods playing without broadcasting are within the terms of the EULA. Were are getting nothing. You are ignoring tickets completely, and those tickets which are being answered contain only unrelated text macros or EULA quotes which are not helpful at all.

Now CCP started banning innocent pilots who are using more than one account on the same IP address who are just fast. Even some without ISBoxer software. If you are commanding more than one account in a time-frame of three seconds from the same IP CCP considers this broadcasting and you will likely receive a ban, even if you are not broadcasting. This is because CCP's immature and flawed detection software can not differentiate between manual fast actions and broadcasting. If you can't clearly prove that someone is broadcasting and you are still banning because it MIGHT BE POSSIBLE that someone is broadcasting you are doing something wrong and you will probably hit many innocent pilots.

I am not kidding. This happened to 4 guys I know. Two of them aren't even using ISBoxer and are only commanding two clients at once without any software aid. CCP's reaction on petitions filed by those:

Our systems says so, deal with it.

We are touching legal terms right now, if you are banning a paying customer without clear evidence, from a game he paid actual money for. This will sooner or later cause a lot of trouble.

We want a clear statement if our new ways to multiboxing is allowed or not. And we request that you stop using an inaccurate and flawed detection software if it can't differentiate between broadcasting and pushing buttons fast. Assume that people are acting in good faith, if you are unsure and can't prove the opposite.

regards
charadrass


TL;DR: CCP's not following their own EULA, banning people for 2+ commands in three seconds even without ISBoxer installed.
I'm an EVE bro with extended knowledge of incursions. Feel free to contact me here.
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lax

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Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:32 am

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

If you are commanding more than one account in a time-frame of three seconds from the same IP CCP considers this broadcasting and you will likely receive a ban, even if you are not broadcasting.

A random rumor post on the official EVE forums from a random person claiming there's this new detection where you can't touch more than one window within 3 seconds from the same IP? I seriously doubt this claim, considering the number of active EVE multiboxers around here... that we know are still using Video FX to touch many windows in less than 3 seconds...

More likely they are banned for a different reason.
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Jeran

Posts: 59

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:57 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:28 am

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

lax wrote:
If you are commanding more than one account in a time-frame of three seconds from the same IP CCP considers this broadcasting and you will likely receive a ban, even if you are not broadcasting.

A random rumor post on the official EVE forums from a random person claiming there's this new detection where you can't touch more than one window within 3 seconds from the same IP? I seriously doubt this claim, considering the number of active EVE multiboxers around here... that we know are still using Video FX to touch many windows in less than 3 seconds...

More likely they are banned for a different reason.


Completely agreed. If there was any evidence at all of any of those claims, it would have already been posted.
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Sumeragy

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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:22 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

Well it hit me. I posted another posts just up ahead.
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bugme143

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Posts: 47

Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:31 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:32 pm

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

lax wrote:
If you are commanding more than one account in a time-frame of three seconds from the same IP CCP considers this broadcasting and you will likely receive a ban, even if you are not broadcasting.

A random rumor post on the official EVE forums from a random person claiming there's this new detection where you can't touch more than one window within 3 seconds from the same IP? I seriously doubt this claim, considering the number of active EVE multiboxers around here... that we know are still using Video FX to touch many windows in less than 3 seconds...

More likely they are banned for a different reason.


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6569

I try not to waste my time on unfounded rumors. The person who originally brought this to my attention is not exactly on the best of terms with me, but I had no reason to believe he was lying to garner sympathy. Playing the game has it's advantages when it comes to networking with people who may be affected by new things CCP throws at us.
I'm an EVE bro with extended knowledge of incursions. Feel free to contact me here.
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LordsServant

Posts: 13

Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 12:24 pm

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:46 pm

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

bugme143 wrote:
lax wrote:
If you are commanding more than one account in a time-frame of three seconds from the same IP CCP considers this broadcasting and you will likely receive a ban, even if you are not broadcasting.

A random rumor post on the official EVE forums from a random person claiming there's this new detection where you can't touch more than one window within 3 seconds from the same IP? I seriously doubt this claim, considering the number of active EVE multiboxers around here... that we know are still using Video FX to touch many windows in less than 3 seconds...

More likely they are banned for a different reason.


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6569

I try not to waste my time on unfounded rumors. The person who originally brought this to my attention is not exactly on the best of terms with me, but I had no reason to believe he was lying to garner sympathy. Playing the game has it's advantages when it comes to networking with people who may be affected by new things CCP throws at us.


So it looks like he was using round robin?

I sorta mentioned several times I would AVOID doing anything too shenanigan-ish like that. CCP doesn't have to follow the letter of their law, and can freely ban people for absolutely no reason at all if they think it goes against the spirit of their law.

I'd like to get a bit more concrete info and/or an actual quote on this CCP ruling, as I find a "3 seconds" thing to be quite suspect, and entirely unenforceable as everything down to simply using a noob corp noobship alt for scouting would fall under that.

I've had no issues with my isboxing, nor any warnings whatsoever from anyone in my corp. We do not use round robin, nor any kind of intense rollover stuff. I use video FX and nothing else to great effect.

I would avoid any kind of serious isboxer shenanigans that would involve multiple things happening with 1 button press (hardeners turning on, clicking a button and on release it swaps to another account).

Round Robin would, on paper, be under CCP's rules at first glance, but they could be interpreting it as such:

Press button --> action to 1st client.
???? --> Swap to second client.
Press button --> action to 2nd client.

Regardless of how we consider it, the "action" of swapping to the second client could be considered a second action with CCP?

I'm very skeptical as I haven't seen much evidence beyond these few people. It IS pretty early, and we'll see if more people are banned, but a small handful of people who just got banned (and might get unbanned if CCP fucked up) I don't think is worth getting hugely ruffled about.
Last edited by LordsServant on Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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bugme143

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Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:31 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:57 pm

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

http://puu.sh/f3SyN.png Another guy involved.
I'm an EVE bro with extended knowledge of incursions. Feel free to contact me here.
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Jeran

Posts: 59

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:57 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

bugme143 wrote:http://puu.sh/f3SyN.png Another guy involved.


Again, at this point I'm going to lean towards the more likely scenarios, which are:
1. He's lying;
2. He's doing something else wrong and using isboxer as an excuse to avoid getting in trouble;
3. He's using one of the ISBoxer edge cases involving round robins or crazy-fast videoFX passthroughs/clickthroughs, in which case he should have already accepted getting in trouble as a likely outcome.
4. He did something wrong, or looked like he did, and he is communicating CCP's reasoning to us poorly.
5. He did something wrong, or looked like he did, and CCP is communicating their reasoning to him poorly.

If we somehow manage to rule all of that out, I suppose "CCP is randomly banning ISBoxer users at the whim of GMs / eve-o forum posts / random petitions," is the next option, but I'm just not too worried about it.
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Sumeragy

Posts: 5

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:22 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

Jeran wrote:
bugme143 wrote:If we somehow manage to rule all of that out, I suppose "CCP is randomly banning ISBoxer users at the whim of GMs / eve-o forum posts / random petitions," is the next option, but I'm just not too worried about it.



I think u get some kind of a "System Trigger" you know they detect you somehow. Second u get a report from a player. Then they will react on that. I mean you don´t wana loose customers why bother whit them if no one says a word. (keep in mind that i don´t know how they handle it)

Also i think theyr support ticket system is full whit pettittions, they don´t have time to check it up so just bann and it will be fine. At least it would explain why it takes days to get an answer from them.

"System Trigger" + Player Report = ban

Btw i don´t know how the "System Trigger" is happening.
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Shadowandlight

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:40 am

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:33 pm

Re: Cut/Paste from EVE forums

well all i can say is i have a video showing how fast using rollover VFX's can be, which along side a good round-robin setup is just as fast as input duplication was for many activities (dragging ore is not one of them).

I have not been temp'ed banned (yet) but that is one reason I created some videos to show what my gameplay is.
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