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Ban hunt

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Kialya

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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:53 am

Post Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:41 pm

Ban hunt

With Everquest now announcing they are on the hunt for 'cheaters' do you think ISBoxer is on the list for potential bans? What are your thoughts?
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lax

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Post Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:50 pm

Re: Ban hunt

I highly doubt that, unless you're using some hack to be able to use ISBoxer on a True Box server -- that would be cheating.

Or if you're using some EQ1 hack or bot, that would be cheating, even if you "use ISBoxer" while using said hack or bot.
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Kialya

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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:53 am

Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:35 pm

Re: Ban hunt

Not using anything other than isboxer.
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aurastrider

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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:26 pm

Post Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Ban hunt

I have been fairly aggressive trying to get answers from DBG regarding the use of broadcasting in relation to there recent announcement regarding 3rd party use. They have not commented on anything posted on the message boards or my PM's to Rox regarding clarification. I have submitted two tickets. The first response was rather robotic and redirected me to the post stating to submit a ticket for questions. My second ticket reads "The use of third party programs violate our terms of service, use third party programs at your own risk."

This response is rather frustrating as in years past there have been confirmation from the forum moderators that the use of ISB and broadcasting does not violate the rules. Now they have changed the rules and it places all of use in jeopardy should another player get a wild hair up their backside and decides to report us.

I have already taken to social media since they cant silence me there like they can on their forums. This has been a very disappointing time in EQ history for me as I love the game and love what ISB has allowed me to accomplish in game that I otherwise would have never been able to accomplish. Without ISB I would have been stuck years ago without any hope of progressing through the game. I hope ISB can reach out to DBG and try to talk some sense into them. If not every EQ player who uses ISB needs to be vocal via social media that this is not acceptable to cast aside loyal customers who have supported their company for years. Even if this means they create a special server where we can use ISB that's better than not being able to use ISB at all.
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bob

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Post Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Ban hunt

As per usual the blanket statement of
The use of third party programs violate our terms of service, use third party programs at your own risk.
is just near useless. It begs the question of Third Party to whom? If you use the legal definition of "a party who is a stranger to a transaction or proceeding between two other persons" (this is from an online "legal dictionary", so your countries actual laws will no doubt have a more drawn out definition), then it would make it null and void as the transaction/proceeding is between a person and an entity, being DBG. But, if you go with a more non specific term of "Legal Entities" rather than "Persons", which then would cause lookup to Legal Entites in your local law (it is possible that "persons" in US law has specific meaning to be equivalent to legal entity, or representatives of), which, are normally defined to include companies, trusts, natural persons (i.e. warm blooded hoomans), and other non-person business type paper structures, then that makes the statement valid, and is a proceeding/transaction between the game purchaser and DBG. So Third Party. Basically ANY company/person outside of the two parties of the transaction. Including, Microsoft/NVidia/AMD/Corsair/Logitech, e.g. ANY other piece of software running on your computer from which you use to provide any kind of functionality that is used to actually play the game.

It is a bullshit clause, and always will be, unless they deign to provide a list of accepted third parties from whom programs are allowed, otherwise, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER is violating the TOS. BAN THEM ALL!!
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lax

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Post Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:09 am

Re: Ban hunt

aurastrider wrote:I have been fairly aggressive trying to get answers from DBG regarding the use of broadcasting in relation to there recent announcement regarding 3rd party use. They have not commented on anything posted on the message boards or my PM's to Rox regarding clarification. I have submitted two tickets. The first response was rather robotic and redirected me to the post stating to submit a ticket for questions. My second ticket reads "The use of third party programs violate our terms of service, use third party programs at your own risk."


Why should they need to do that? They are not doing anything different than most game publishers. The response you got is the expected response. They are not the creators of ISBoxer and they do not want to endorse ISBoxer, they want you to use your own head and determine whether you think you are at risk. They don't want to name the software, they don't want to draw a line at which specific features of ISBoxer are allowed or not, they don't want to have to install it and figure it out just to answer your questions. They just want to provide a blanket statement about third party software and leave it at that. That is how they see their job.

Nearly 20 years ago, I sent Sony Online Entertainment an e-mail because the EQ1 ToS said that to publish an EQ1-related utility, you need written permission from them. Well, I wrote a utility called EQWatcher, which you may or may not be aware of (now people use "GINA"?), and I thought they would be sure to approve of a log file watcher! Their response was essentially to tell me to stop developing EQWatcher, and that they are not in the business of approving third-party software! I told them to shove it up their ass (in moderately nicer terms), and I continued developing EQWatcher. My EQ1 accounts were not banned. There was never anything wrong with EQWatcher, they are just a company filled with people who are trying to do their job the way they think it is supposed to be done.
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Neber

Posts: 1

Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:47 pm

Post Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:10 pm

Re: Ban hunt

lax wrote:
aurastrider wrote:I have been fairly aggressive trying to get answers from DBG regarding the use of broadcasting in relation to there recent announcement regarding 3rd party use. They have not commented on anything posted on the message boards or my PM's to Rox regarding clarification. I have submitted two tickets. The first response was rather robotic and redirected me to the post stating to submit a ticket for questions. My second ticket reads "The use of third party programs violate our terms of service, use third party programs at your own risk."


Why should they need to do that? They are not doing anything different than most game publishers. The response you got is the expected response. They are not the creators of ISBoxer and they do not want to endorse ISBoxer, they want you to use your own head and determine whether you think you are at risk. They don't want to name the software, they don't want to draw a line at which specific features of ISBoxer are allowed or not, they don't want to have to install it and figure it out just to answer your questions. They just want to provide a blanket statement about third party software and leave it at that. That is how they see their job.


As to specific features, they drew some lines:
"Third party programs that work by reading logs (from the /log command) or by reading the generated output files (from the /output command) are generally okay to use. Results of these programs must be displayed in a non-client window.

Third party programs that automate play or provide an advantage that is not obtainable in-game are not acceptable to use.
Third party programs that alter the client directly are also not okay; this is why the above states that programs must present their displays in non-client windows/formats."

From this thread, on the off chance you haven't seen it https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/regarding-third-party-cheat-programs.250451/page-32 (first and last posts are relevant).

I do not know how ISBoxer works (example VFX and click bars in relation to the client window), and the definition of advantage is subjective.

Also, really great software lax. I wish I had discovered it years ago.
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lax

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Post Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:23 am

Re: Ban hunt

Well, any gaming overlay fits that description, including NVIDIA's in-game overlay: "Must be displayed in a non-client window" lol. What. That doesn't even mean anything and, if the game is in windowed mode, makes no difference. A transparent-background window can be placed over the top of the game window with overlay elements in it, and now it's "a non-client window" despite the appearance to the user of being "in the client window". That's completely arbitrary, and my response is a laugh.

In fact you mention Video FX, that is basically how they work, they are not rendered as part of the game window, Windows composes them over the top of the game window later. But they appear to you as if they are part of the game window. That is my point, you didn't know and it didn't even matter.

EQPlayNice is "not okay" according to their description, despite years-earlier assurances that they would not like to ban for EQPlayNice. EQPlayNice has not even changed since Smedley said that.

WinEQ 2, and even EQWindows for that matter, could be interpreted as "not okay"

Third party programs that automate play or provide an advantage that is not obtainable in-game are not acceptable to use.

Pretty sure this is "bots" and "cheats". "Provide an advantage that is not obtainable in-game" there were plenty of examples of this in EQ1 in the past, I vaguely remember people giving their characters abilities they were not supposed to have like tracking or feign death. We don't do this stuff. ..

But I agree, those are some broad strokes they are painting with and maybe they don't realize what they are saying. I understand why people are confused.
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bob

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League of Extraordinary Multiboxers

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Location: In the dining room, with the lead pipe.

Post Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:22 am

Re: Ban hunt

Lax said most of it better than what I was going to, but I think he left out something too.
Neber wrote:Third party programs that automate play or provide an advantage that is not obtainable in-game are not acceptable to use.
ISBoxer ultimately sends/presents* keystrokes to the game as a response to keys that are manually pressed, and lets the game interpret those keystrokes however it will, no funny stuff going on.
There is no automation, no reading of game memory for ANY values, and the same result is obtainable without ISBoxer, because it is left to the game to interpret the keystrokes sent to it from ISBoxer. You can't call ISBoxer an advantage there if it is being left to the game to figure it all out.

yes, that was quite repetitive.



/e
*Just wanted to add, it does this by effectively replacing the bog standard Windows input system which only presents input to a single window at a time (the focused window), and instead provides an alternative input system that can present input to any window (application) using it's input system. There is a lot more technical stuff to it, but that is the general gist.
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aurastrider

Posts: 2

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:26 pm

Post Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:33 am

Re: Ban hunt

So I actually got a response back finally which was different from what the people that handle the ticket post. "As long as what you're doing is within reason, not on a true box server, and requires user input like you said, this is fine. Automation is of course never allowed, but this type of key broadcasting is okay!" is the response I got back.

This helps to calm some of my concerns. ISB is truly an amazing product and I probably would not be gaming today or at least not in the mmo world without it. I will continue to promote the product to everyone and encourage its use. Keep up the good work helping to provide a more enjoyable gaming experience to those of us who are bored with the single character game and burnt out with the robotic assembly line motions that alt tab and true boxing requires.
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