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need help deciding on GPU

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Tink8792

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Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:19 pm

need help deciding on GPU

Looking for some opinions on GPU upgrade. I am using ASUS DSGC-DW (commercial server board) and have all ready maxed the processors, RAM, and running dual SSD drives. This thing doesn't even break a sweat running 5-man but the graphics is set about as low as they can on slave and master is decent not great.


https://www.asus.com/us/Commercial-Serv ... fications/


Total Slots: 7
Slot location 1: 1 * PCI-X 133/100 MHz
Slot location 2: 1 * PCI-X 133/100 MHz
Slot location 3: 1 * PCI-E x8 (x 8 link)
Slot location 4: 1 * PCI-E x16 (x 4 link)
Slot location 5: 1 * PCI 32bit/33 MHz
Slot location 6: 1 * PCI-E x16


I know the PCI slot will be the bottleneck but not sure how much? Most GPUs are backward compatible so they will run on older slot.


The real question is what GPU should I consider? Guessing the NVIDIA 980 would be a waste of money. But honestly not really sure what to expect from such an old slot. Think I am currently running Radeon 6900 series with 2GB. (released 2011) I also have NVIDIA GTX780 I think and I think the older Radeon does a better job multiboxing and IDK why.

any recommendations? and why that card?

What specs should I be looking for? clock speed, memory clock speed, memory type, memory bandwidth? get the idea? probably lower the power requirements the better but I do have 1000 watt psu
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bob

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Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

Kind of a hard question to answer. There are probably a bunch of caveats that go with it which I've not bothered to figure out.

Looking at it, the image of the slots doesn't exactly match up with the list (I've not checked out the manual), you will need to use the x16 slot (for the physical size and the bandwidth). This is presumably PCIE 1.1 (or 1.0), because it doesn't say otherwise in the basic viewing.

Checking out the performance testing that has gone on before, there is negligible difference at PCIE 3.0 @ x4 vs x16. As soon as you go below this bandwidth (3940MB/s), then it becomes apparent that the GPU performance is hindered by data starvation (although this does depend on game - most games drop a few FPS, some have a noticeable impact). A PCIE 3.0 x4 == PCIE 2.0 x8 == PCIE 1.0 x16 in terms of data rate.

As for compatibility. Some work in older slots, and some wont, despite claiming compatibility. Not sure that anyone advertises PCIE 1 compatibility these days, so maybe see if you can get a friendly supplier to allow you to test it. Conjecture, but there seems to be some reports of current Radeon's being less inclined to function on PCIE 1.0.

Recommendations.. Whatever you can justify really. Beyond the slot considerations, it depends a lot on what game, how many instances of the game, what graphic settings, what resolutions. Basically you could probably get away with any graphics card that supports working in the slot, but to improve performance, you will be after the processing power and vRAM, of which the missing details become important.


Some references
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/artic ... mance-518/
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD ... ing/3.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comme ... rmance_of/
http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2488- ... ct-on-gpus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Expre ... press_1.0a


/edit:
Ok, so, noticed this is in the WoW forum, and you talk about running 5 mans.
Assuming a 1440p resolution, then personally I'd be looking at a 980Ti, 1070 or better. Why, vRAM mainly, but also because they have the processing power to run decent graphic settings, and not choke. I'd be inclined for the 1070 myself. Current gen, decent vRAM, and more than capable of running reasonably high graphic settings across multiple instances, run quieter.
Note: I do have a Radeon 7970 and an NVidia 980Ti. Both have done me well over the years. I've had driver issues with both over the years, so am fairly agnostic, but I'm inclined to go Nvidia again, because they just are king of the hill currently.
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Tink8792

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Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:27 am

Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:42 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

ok I only play World of Warcraft. (why i posted here and not in general)

You are right the slots aren't listed in order of the photo it should be the early PCI 1 because at time of production nobody heard of PCI 1.1+.

As for a friendly supplier I will have to do everything online. The most advanced computer shop in town that I know if is Best Buy and they mark the products up so bad I don't even bother shopping there.

guessing that the PCI-E x8 or PCI-E x16 are the only usable slots.

Would running (SLI?) really help? If I remember the specs properly the x16 slot will scale down to x8 so I am cutting the speed in half all ready but I gain double the processing and memory? I would think the bandwidth speed would be most critical then the processing and memory with the stats of modern cards.
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bob

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Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:40 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

With SLI, you gain double the GPU processing power, minus the overhead, which is approximately 10%, so an effective 180% a single card (approximations based on various bits of internet hearsay). You don't get double the vRAM as both cards need to hold the same Frame Buffers/Textures/ stuff.

Nvidia cards wont SLI on slots below x8, so you'd need two x8 slots, and while it should work on a PCIE 1.0 x8 slot (it's detection doesn't seem to check the spec, just the lanes), you are dropping your available bandwidth to half the recommended minimum to be able to load the card with data (and not impact FPS overly much). In other words, you will be wasting your money as while you would have double the GPU processing, you would have just increased your latency to a level where FPS would be impacted severely.


This particular thread has some interesting info on what to expect with backwards compatibility with a PCIE v1.1 slot. The problem is most likely going to power availability from the slot, rather than data lanes and things. Now this guy is taking PCIE 1.1, vs 1.0, but between the specifications, I don't thing the power spec changed, so you might be OK. Best bet would be to ask one of the manufacturers directly, and maybe check out a few reviews for power draw of cards from the slot, and make sure it meets spec.


/edit: This youtube vid, this guy is running a 970 in a PCIE 1.1 slot. The comments are gold with clowns saying he invalidated the test by using different CPU's (like you are going to get a test with aged componentry like that and be able to use the same CPU!), but in your case it is more of a question that does the GPU run in an older slot or not. Looks like Nvidia cards would be OK from my small bit of googling. AMD cards are more questionable as they did have a period were certain cards were drawing more power than spec over the PCIE slot.

/edit2: One more consideration would be whether your PSU has the correct connectors. I know my old PSU used on an Core2 E6400 (and a Core2 Q6600) was not a drop in on a newer setup due to connectors, although that might not have been the PCIE power connectors.

/edit3: a quick recce shows the PCI-E 1.0/1.1/2.0/2.1/3.0/3.1 all specify up to 75W through the PCI-E slot itself.
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Tink8792

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Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:59 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

OK just spent forever online with NVIDIA support. If these guys know their stuff I am S.O.L. I have to stick with a 2.0 card, claim a PCI-E 3.0 GPU will not handle the slower PCI-E 1.0 slot. period...

2nd) the best top of the line NVIDIA 2.0 card by them is the GTX 590 and by GPSBOSS its not any better then what I have HD6950.

http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-6950- ... ce-GTX-590

interesting that I have an GTX 550ti installed on work computer but it doesn't like running 1 instance of World of Warcraft but I am also running dual monitors. My Multi-box machine is single 32" TV.

I haven't looked at the links provided yet just sharing what I have just learned. I have also asked this question in 2 other forums still waiting to hear what someone else will say.
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bob

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Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:16 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

Certainly a google indicates that people have run PCIE 3.0 GPU's in a 1.0 slot. Is this guy saying that Nvidia is not complying to PCI-SIG spec?

Also, I must say, IIRC I was running my AMD 7970 in an ASUS P5K deluxe which appears to be a PCIE 1.0 slot so I reckon your phone guy is talking shit. (I had a 580GTX in there too for a while but that is specced at supporting PCIE 2.0).
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Tink8792

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Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:27 am

Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

/edit: this guy is running a 970 in a PCIE 1.1 slot.


This isn't exactly my question he is running one GPU in 3 different systems all with modern CPUs.

I am working backwards I have the one system and want to test 3 different PCI versions.

PCI 1.0, 2.0 & 3.0 (did find out that NVIDIA doesn't have a 2.1 card)

I am running (2) quad core XEON X5400 or X5300 (dont remember the exact model I know its at least 3GHz.

I maybe making a bigger deal out of this, because if I understand the current standard there is a much less load on the CPU and more is handle by the GPU. But since I will only have 1/3 the preformance and by NVIDA that is a really bad thing, 1/2 is acceptable so one gen down is ok. So since I am seriously unloading the processors think 5 games run at 3% load on average. But GPU is maxed dropping the settings will bring it down but not sure if that is because WoW was built around NVIDA and not RADEON. With my own testing the older RADEON card spanks the hell out of the gt 730 card i tested. But found out I needed a GTX series. I just might be spending the weekend swapping my GPUs around and seeing what happens.
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bob

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Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:22 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

Tink8792 wrote:
/edit: this guy is running a 970 in a PCIE 1.1 slot.


This isn't exactly my question he is running one GPU in 3 different systems all with modern CPUs.
Your question was regarding a modern GPU in an older system right? The specs on his channel are:
- CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.00 Ghz @ 4.0 Ghz OC
- MOBO: Asustek P5K PRO P35 chipset
- RAM: 4x1GB 800Mhz DDR2 @ 889Mhz CL6 Dual Channel
*
- Intel i7 920 C0 2.66 Ghz @4.0 Ghz ~H2O
- Gigabyte EX-58 UD5 (latest bios)
- 3x2GB Corsair 1600 CL9 Tri-ch
*
- Intel Core i5 4460 3.2 Ghz (Turbo @ 3.4 Ghz)
- Gigabyte H97-HD3
- 2x4GB GeIL EVO Veloce 1600 CL9
The Asustek P5K PRO P35 mainboard and the E8400 is pretty old. Like 9 years old. It is an LGA 775 board, which is the same socket I was using back with my E6400 and Q6600, which I purchased sometime 2007/2008 (mine is still in use today - I gave it to my old man). Surely this qualifies as pretty similar vintage to what you are using? Xeon 5400 was released August 2008, so it would appear to be the same vintage to me.


I am working backwards I have the one system and want to test 3 different PCI versions.
PCI 1.0, 2.0 & 3.0 (did find out that NVIDIA doesn't have a 2.1 card)
That video showed a test of a single graphics card in 3 different systems. From what I understand, you are interested in a modern graphics card in an older system. One of the tests was exactly that, specifically the E8400 in the ASUS P5K PRO


I maybe making a bigger deal out of this, because if I understand the current standard there is a much less load on the CPU and more is handle by the GPU.
Depends on the game. It is true that the current version of WoW is more GPU hungry than it was several years ago. About 3 or 4 years ago they updated the graphics engine and it shunted more work from the CPU to the GPU.

But since I will only have 1/3 the preformance and by NVIDA that is a really bad thing, 1/2 is acceptable so one gen down is ok.
It is the bandwidth available to feed data to the GPU that we are talking about. As has already been established, on a PCIE 1.0 x16 slot you would end up with 4000MB/s which is around 1/4 the available to a PCIE 3.0 x16 slot which is 15760MB/s. Various people who have tested these things, have ended up showing negligible difference between running a modern GPU on a PCIE 3.0 x16 slot at 15760MB/s and a PCIE 3.0 x4 slot at 3940MB/s. As a PCIE 3.0 x4 slot (3940MB/s) has slightly less bandwidth than a PCIE 1.0 x16 slot (4000MB/s), it would appear that any FPS difference is going to be differences in signalling, which should not have that larger impact.

With my own testing the older RADEON card spanks the hell out of the gt 730 card i tested. But found out I needed a GTX series.
A 730GT is a pretty shit card really (it was a rebadged something else low spec - pretty much anything under an x60 of Nvidias tended to be in a range of "Not good for gaming"). A look around shows it on a similar level to a AMD Radeon HD 6670, or an Intel Graphics 540. An AMD 6950HD or 6970 would be a marked improvement over it.

A 780GTX should be much better in terms of performance than all the aforementioned cards, but then it may be you are in fact hitting bandwidth issues on the bus. Mutliboxing requires a lot of resources, and it is not a thing which is normally tested by those people who have the inclination and the job to measure such things. It just may be a case that when running multiple instances of the game, there is no optimization of the graphics pipeline so it ends up moving the same data up and down the bus to the card for each game instance, and thus floods the available capacity of a more limited bandwidth. If you have a 780GTX, and it is not providing a marked improvement over your AMD 6900 series card, then I'd have to guess that you are being impacted by limited bandwidth somewhere in the rest of the system. No doubt this can be measured in the same way that some of these hardware testers do.

It's not definitive, but this list shows graphics cards and their relative performance.
https://www.futuremark.com/hardware/gpu

IMO you should be able to run a current day Nvidia card on your motherboard. I also think you would be able to get mostly decent performance out of it for the majority of single instance games. For the odd game, I'm pretty sure you will be restricted (Battlefield 4 looks to be one of those for example).
What I am unsure of is whether you would end up bottlenecked with multiboxing WoW as the hardware testers normally don't test WoW anymore, and they definitely don't normally test multiboxing. I also am unsure of what impact the rest of the data pipeline around your system will be. We are talking DDR2 667, SATA II, DMA (v1?), offloaded PCIE to northbridge (slower clock) etc. While it may have been suitable previously, the application (game) has moved on, and so have the specs required for it.

It might just be like trying to run Windows XP on a i386/ ios7 on an iPhone4 / Win7 on a Pentium III 1266... etc You could do it, but the experience was just <flushing noises>.... I have done a few of these, and the upgrades I've attempted to make it better, just haven't worked out because you need to manage the whole pipeline. I could use a car engine analogy here.

/edit:
Okay another link as I realised one of the earlier ones was AMD Fury X PCIE scaling. This one is NVidia 1080 PCIE scaling.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVI ... s_Scaling/
To my quick looksee, the NVidia is slightly more impacted with the PCIE bandwidth than the AMD, but it depends on resolution and the game (so some of it may just be bias of that game anyway). There are several conclusions one could make from the numbers, but they're pretty much summed up at the end of the article.

Then this comes back to what the original question "what would you recommend". I'd still recommend a 1070 if that is within your budget. It'll perform well given the freedom to do so. It should perform well on your system if the capacitors are still up to it, but the caveats will end up being on the remainder of the pipeline. On the other hand, it would be just there, should you find the need to update the remainder of the aging platform.
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Tink8792

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Post Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:31 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

Dude that is some amazing research! Thanks for all your help! I am considered that my chipset won't handle it, but since it is a commercial server it should be built to handle more data then say a standard computer of the same vintage. IMHO, but who test servers for gaming? For one a server is 5x the price then a quality built gaming rig the same time. This was originally my workstation computer but it was bugged from the start and packed it up and built another workstation. Then later down the road I had some free time and started messing with it and maxed out the RAM and CPU when prices had dropped to a reasonable price, reflashed the BIOS and it has been a demon since.

Apparently I lied about what I had. Its a HD6850 and the NVIDIA was GT630.

looking at all my gaming computers I have GTX 550 ti & GTX 970.

Think I am just going to have to check and see what best PCI-E slots I have and see if I have a PCI 2.0 then just order a 3.0 card for it that we know will work and test it in this system first.

This machine is
(2) X5470s 3.33 GHz (8 cores total)
32GB PC2-5300
PCI SSD 250gb hard drive (since the ide and sata was much slower.)

I can run firefox, 5 games and not get over 3% usage. The GPU is the bottleneck just trying to understand what my max upgrade will be.
Looking at all my gaming computers I have GTX 550 ti & GTX 970.
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bob

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Post Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: need help deciding on GPU

Maybe your swapping of cards this weekend would be worthwhile.
If you have a 970 already, drop it in and see how it performs. Doing so would provide enough information to determine whether it would be worthwhile looking at getting another similar or newer card.

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