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Translation & Localisation

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Kaische

Posts: 167

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:11 am

Location: Germany

Post Sat May 03, 2014 10:07 am

Translation & Localisation

I started using ISBoxer 4 years ago and for a new user the first steps were really hard back then. The Quick Setup Wizard did a good job creating a basic setup. But if someone wanted more you had to read the wiki to understand all those new terms and how ISBoxer uses them. Then stumble through the ISBoxer interface and understand how all these Actions and Mapped Keys work. And then the trial and error began...
Time has passed and the forum now has many user written guides on how to setup a specific game or how to create a special usecase. Better and better videos were created to show the new user a simple follow guideline on how to do things or tell advanced users a few secrets. Finally there are the streamers who occasionally explain to their audience how they setup something.
ISBoxer developed into a even more premium multiboxing software with even more awesome features.
Sadly, the only thing that did not evolved in the last few years is the translation and localisation. Only a few translations were added in July/August 2011 to the ISBoxer wiki and even fewer guides or videos exist in another native language on the web.

In all the games i multiboxed over the years i got many tells. Many hate tells but also tells from people who were interested in how this was possible and some of them asked later in the conversation in how they can try it by themself.
I had always a bad feeling when some of those people reported a few days later that they tried but then gave up because they did not understand enough (technical) english.
The idea of translating stuff in the wiki or some subtitles for videos or even guides of other users i got quite some time ago but did not had the patience back then to finish all the work to a point i was okay to publish it.
Although i do not have that much time at the moment let's try it again :)



ISBoxer is using a MediaWiki and i looked at their wiki to see if there is some sort of rule or policy on how to handle a wiki with multiple languages.
Unfortunately they use the Extension Translate which insert markers with an increasing number like <!--T:###--> inside the original text to split the text into smaller units which can be identified and translated easier by the software later on and let the extension know what changed between changes on the original page.
Problem here is that if someone rearranges or delete those marker, the software is confused and breaks all translations.
I do not know how everybody else is editing a wiki page: Some people are using a simple editor to write some text and later copy&paste the whole text inside the wiki, some other use the WYSIWYG editor offered by the wiki. In both cases someone has to pay attention for the location of these markers if editing a page.
I have the feeling that installing extentions simply for translation is a bit overkill so i will use the following system which Lax approved/suggested quite some time ago in the chat.



For each language a subpage is created under the original page with their language code, for example:

Code:
Main page          Main page/de          for the german translation of the Main page
                   Main page/fr          for the french translation of the Main page
                   ...


This has the disadvantage that every link still has the english name and the title can not be translated.
For links that need a better name my personal choice would be something like this:

Code:
Anleitung:ISBoxer mit mehreren Computern benutzen      redirect to HOWTO:Use ISBoxer With Multiple Computers/de
Hauptseite                                             redirect to Main page/de
RIFT:Kurzanleitung                                     redirect to RIFT:Quick Start Guide/de

de:Hauptseite                                          redirect to Main page/de
RIFT:de:Kurzanleitung                                  redirect to RIFT:Quick Start Guide/de
de:RIFT:Kurzanleitung                                  redirect to RIFT:Quick Start Guide/de


The first 3 examples have the best results but may collide in rare cases with english or other languages depending on the name.
The last 3 are examples of how to avoid that but i am not sure if the de: interferes with a namespace of the wiki. If RIFT: is a namespace itself then in which order should it be arranged?

What do you guys think?


Another point i like to mention is the localisation.
Most of the terms used in ISBoxer and InnerSpace are hardcoded and can not be translated which makes the translation of the normal wiki pages somehow painful because all the options and checkboxes names cant be translated.
...

Please have this in mind for the next upcoming version of IS/ISBoxer to give us users the possibility to change all text messages.
Thank you.
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lax

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 10:21 am

Re: Translation & Localisation

Kaische wrote:Most of the terms used in ISBoxer and InnerSpace are hardcoded and can not be translated which makes the translation of the normal wiki pages somehow painful because all the options and checkboxes names cant be translated.
...

Please have this in mind for the next upcoming version of IS/ISBoxer to give us users the possibility to change all text messages.

I added this a long time ago and frankly I don't think anyone uses it. Nobody has asked about it in years.

In the top left pane in ISBoxer, click the top-most item labelled "ISBoxer" (selected by default when you launch ISBoxer). Then in the bottom right pane underneath the Inner Space folder is a language drop-down and Language Editor button. Here you can localize a lot of ISBoxer's text. Not all of it, because I am constantly developing new things and unless someone's actually localizing the text it's a complete waste of my time to continue expanding that.

Part of the problem with localizing every last thing in ISBoxer (e.g. the text of check boxes, etc) is that the GUI is WinForms as opposed to WPF -- which to most people means nothing, but suffice it to say that localizing the text of a check box or label may mean that the rest of the controls are no longer placed correctly. In one language it's so wide, and then in another it's either bigger or smaller, and the rest of the GUI no longer matches up. This is going to be the case until ISBoxer is eventually replaced.

And then there's support. The more we localize the text in ISBoxer, the less the documentation, videos, and real-time support is going to match up. When I say to someone "Click Key Maps in the top left pane" and they have it localized, they may just stare at the screen and wonder what they are really supposed to click on.

I don't think there is an ideal solution until ISBoxer's replacement. Unfortunately that's been in the works for years, but has been pushed back due to constant work needed on ISBoxer itself. (Although much of the work that has been done is used by both)
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Kaische

Posts: 167

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:11 am

Location: Germany

Post Sat May 03, 2014 8:43 pm

Re: Translation & Localisation

This was not the kind of answer i had expected. I get the feeling that you do not like localisation at all!

I like to remind you that i did not demanded a full translated ISBoxer 41.08, i asked if it would be possible to keep localisation in mind while programming the next generation version.

lax wrote:[...]Here you can localize a lot of ISBoxer's text. Not all of it, because I am constantly developing new things and unless someone's actually localizing the text it's a complete waste of my time to continue expanding that.

Yes "not all of it" and this is the exact reason i wrote "most of the terms in ISB/IS are hardcoded". For example "Target" is a string in locale.xml but in the "New Menu Button Action" it is hardcoded as Target.
It is a difference if you offer a list of terms which will get used all over the place and depending on grammar their plural change or if you have a list of possible messages the program could display at one place as a whole string. But ... whatever.

lax wrote:And then there's support. The more we localize the text in ISBoxer, the less the documentation, videos, and real-time support is going to match up. When I say to someone "Click Key Maps in the top left pane" and they have it localized, they may just stare at the screen and wonder what they are really supposed to click on.

Really? *facepalm*
How about this:
Code:
Hi SUPPORTUSER.
If you can read this please follow my instructions:
In the top left pane in ISBoxer, click the top-most item labelled "ISBoxer" (selected by default when you launch ISBoxer).
Then in the bottom right pane underneath the Inner Space folder is a language drop-down.
Please choose english so i can guide you through your problem.
After that, you can reset your language in the same manner.
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lax

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Posts: 7301

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:32 pm

Post Sat May 03, 2014 8:48 pm

Re: Translation & Localisation

I get the feeling that you do not like localisation at all!

From the last 5 of your posts to me I get the feeling that you do not like me at all.

Yes "not all of it" and this is the exact reason i wrote "most of the terms in ISB/IS are hardcoded". For example "Target" is a string in locale.xml but in the "New Menu Button Action" it is hardcoded as Target.
It is a difference if you offer a list of terms which will get used all over the place and depending on grammar their plural change or if you have a list of possible messages the program could display at one place as a whole string. But ... whatever.

Maybe lead with this instead of implying that localization does not exist. I could only assume from your post that you were unaware of the current features. Had you said this, I could have addressed it and we could move on with our lives.

Regardless, the primary issue here is the one you didn't quote me on. The GUI system does not rearrange based on the text.
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Kaische

Posts: 167

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:11 am

Location: Germany

Post Mon May 12, 2014 8:53 pm

Re: Translation & Localisation

lax wrote:From the last 5 of your posts to me I get the feeling that you do not like me at all.


No, the opposit, I really adore you!
But let me try to explain:


I started the topic ''translation'' months/years ago... if you remember, i asked you in the chat what would be the best form to add another language. You answered : TL;DR add /xx ... as in XX as in your countrycode ... as in DE = germany.
At that time i did not have had any experience with a wiki so i skipped the most part and translated to a plain ''textfile''.
Then i got those moments where i ''offered'' MiRai more. I added the most parts of his YT-files to my local translated textfiles ... but then got thinking: why did i translated all that stuff with 'Key Maps' 'Repeater' 'Mapped Keys' 'Hotkey' ... which are not easy translatable words!
This is Denglisch / Germanglish. Not a complete translation with all of it, so i delayed it because it was not complete.

And considered it, reconsidered it even more and even more more... but i could not get it to a ''correct'' form. Tried to reach some other people who could understand the native AND the original context, i found two who are willing to help me but ... had problems to understand my translations vs the originals (the context) *doh*

Last action was to ask here in this thread if my general method was okay.
I mean, it was okay to translate, wasn't it? You could get money!! Add something in the Wiki and then maybe someone other can edit it and make it even better!...


As i said: I had not the experience to write into a Wiki and then I realised: I am the first person who ever does with the intention to do so over a longer period.
Maybe i should ask first at what conventions / grammers / things / stuffs i should consider.
I did. Here in this thread. Asked.
What i got was an answer, as is said, i was not expecting:

    Yes, i added localisation: click here, click there, you can translate. But not all of it.
    More translations make support more difficult.

This was the part i got angry about!

Yes. I am sorry! My answer was not nice! But i originally asked another question and i think i deserved an answer :(

EDIT: typo

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